UESPWiki:Archive/CP More Namespace Reorganization

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More Namespace Reorganization

While we're on the subject of radical reorganization, I have another proposal for a change to the namespaces. I suggest that we might want to change all of the Main pages for each of the games to be Morrowind:Main Page, Oblivion:Main Page, etc., instead of Morrowind:Morrowind, Oblivion:Oblivion. The recent recreation of the Redguard article illustrates why this change makes sense. (It's currently the only game that doesn't have its own Mainspace redirect, which is probably why people keep creating it, and why they will continue to do so - non-Admins have no way of knowing that the page was already created and deleted in the past. I admit that I should have checked, but whatever.) Additionally, I think that Morrowind:Morrowind should really be an article about the province of Morrowind as it relates to the game Morrowind. (Like the fact that 2/3rds of the province is not actually seen in-game, for example.) Likewise, Oblivion:Oblivion should be an article about the planes of Oblivion, (possibly move Oblivion:Planes of Oblivion there) Daggerfall:Daggerfall should be about the county and city of Daggerfall, Redguard:Redguard should be about the race, Battlespire:Battlespire should be about the tower, etc. The second part of a page name should be the subject of the article as it relates to the first part. This is something of a major change (not so much in that it involves a lot of work but in that people might have Oblivion:Oblivion bookmarked or linked from other sites), so I think if we decide to do so, we should put a notice onto the top of each of these pages linking to the Main Page articles and suggesting that people update their links. It makes sense for the same reason that Lore:Tamriel (or Lore:Tamriel as it may soon be called) should really be an article about the continent of Tamriel, not just a main page for links. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:50, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

I'd support that. --Ratwar 13:23, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

Support The changes suggested make a lot of sense, and would help with the other suggested reorganization as well. --Benould^•T•C 13:55, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

Yeah, makes sense. But I'd say we should perhaps do any change fairly slowly. The pages we're talking about are among the most viewed pages on the site. So minimizing the disruption to readers should be a high priority.

We already have redirects at all the various Main Page names (Oblivion:Main Page, Morrowind:Main Page). I'd suggest that first we start by making sure that those redirects are used in all appropriate places (in particular prominent places like the sidebar and the main Main Page). Then perhaps move the current pages to Main Pages, and leave redirects at Oblivion:Oblivion, etc. for some time (months). After it seems safe to assume that most people are using the new main pages, change Oblivion:Oblivion, etc. over to new content. It will take some time, but I think it's warrnanted. --Nephele^Talk 14:55, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

It's a good idea and makes a lot of sense, but I'd second Nephele's call for caution. Apart from anything else it looks like the Tam->Lore debate is heading for a conclusion (even if the corollaries aren't yet) and I'd suggest a One Thing At A Time policy can only be good here. The NS move is higher-priority so let's get that out of the way before starting with this. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 15:17, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

(Colon killing spree) Having come late to the party, I'm finding it a little difficult to (a) follow the discussion sequentially, and (b) find somewhere suitable to add my comments. So, they're all going to be lumped here. --Gaebrial 07:12, 17 June 2008 (EDT)

Moving Tamriel to Lore: Good idea. It seems to me that the purpose of the Tamriel articles is to provide a 'backstory', fleshing out the details of the Elder Scrolls universe, so 'Lore' would be an appropriate namespace. Just as long as BethSoft don't release TESV:Lore.

Removing General: Yes, this seems to be a mishmash of things at the moment, dominated by the BethSoft profiles and fanfiction. The profiles could be put under 'Bethesda' (so General:Pete Hines becomes Bethesda:Pete Hines, for example). If we're also moving the reviews & fanfiction to the user pages, that only leaves a small number of pages to be shifted around or deleted as appropriate.

Removing Reviews: If we're going to host this kind of 'fan-opinion' content (see below), then the user namespace is probably the best place for it. Mind you, the only mod lists I have ever used/consulted to any great extent are Telesphoros' List o'Mods for Morrowind and the FCOM load order for Oblivion, so I'm not best placed to comment on their usefulness or appropriateness for UESP.

Changing Morrowind:Morrowind to Morrowind:Main Page etc.: Sounds like a reasonable standardisation, with the main page for each game being at 'Main Page'. I presume that all of the mainspace pages (Morrowind, Oblivion, etc.) would be set up as disambiguation pages (MW and OB already are, but Daggerfall takes you straight to Daggerfall:Daggerfall) with all the various possibilities listed - so for example Morrowind would link to Morrowind:Main Page (main page about game), Morrowind:Morrowind (in-game page about province), and Lore:Morrowind (general page about province).

One final comment on the question of hosting fan fiction, mod lists, and similar stuff: I believe that this kind of content should only be on UESP if it is going to be of use to somebody other than the author. Otherwise, it's just massaging the author's ego. --Gaebrial 07:12, 17 June 2008 (EDT)

I don't think this is a good idea. There are several issues with renaming the game pages to Main Page. In regular writing, if you are talking about a game, you just refer to it by name. It is very convenient on wiki's that the page the link refers to is often very similar to the description of the link. We use that standard practically everywhere. And in many of the cases that it's not, it's a generalised description. For example, "There is a quest that deals with this gate.". But "Main Page" is not a generalised description of a game.

My second reason for objecting this change is that I feel there can only be one Main Page. Having multiple of those might be confusing, but this is mainly an issue of style. The word "Main" suggests that you can't go any further on the hierarchy of the site.

Third, the case where the page name is equal to the namespace name is a special one. I think we should recognize it as that, and give a single purpose to all of these pages. But if Morrowind:Morrowind describes a province, and Redguard:Redguard describes a race, you will have broken this uniformity. As it is now, all these pages describe an entire game. No page higher in the hierarchy should be available.

Next, the purpose of the namespaces is to avoid ambiguation. If you think on it, the link [[Morrowind:Fighters Guild]] actually means: "Page Fighters Guild is requested." "Which Fighters Guild?" "Morrowind's Fighters Guild." I don't think it is a good idea to cast any form of ambiguation over the name "Main Page".

Changing the game page's names requires much work, and I don't think it's worth it if it raises these issues. There may be a few benefits, but I think it issues raised outweigh them. --Timenn < talk > 04:45, 18 June 2008 (EDT)