Template talk:Shout Summary

Template Feedback 2.0

Ideas to improve the template (colors, content, layout, etc.)

I'll start. Should there be a spot for images in the template? If so, would it be an image of the shout in action or an image of the shout as shown in the shouts menu? Would the image be at the top or the side?Chris3145 21:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Template Feedback

Add feedback on templates to this section. Discuss color, content, notation, layout, etc. Note that we don't have to use an existing option exactly as it is. We can combine parts of different ones or use altogether new ideas. The purpose of these templates is to demonstrate their appearance; coding is not necessarily finalized.

Style A
Style B demonstrated on three different shouts: Aura Whisper, Call Dragon, Call of Valor
Style C demonstrated on three different shouts: Aura Whisper, Call Dragon, Call of Valor

Vote!

I know both of you mean well by going down this path, but basically I'm finding it hard to really care about which style is used. Where UESP is at right now with Skyrim, just about the only thing that matters is adding content to the site as quickly as possible. Questions of colors and vertically-aligned or horizontally-aligned infobox layouts are so low on the priority list as to be irrelevant in my mind. And the thought of having progress on adding content be delayed for even a day for the sake of a discussion seems incredibly wasteful.

So looking at this all, the bottom line appears to be that Elliot's objections to creating separate pages for each dragon shout seem to have been withdrawn. Therefore, Chris is free to proceed with reorganizing the content. As far as I'm concerned, Chris is the one who started the project and is the one who is going to be doing the work, therefore Chris should simply proceed in whatever way he thinks best. No vote or input from other members is necessary -- just start doing the work. Chris is the one who is most likely to use the template, and is the one who is most likely to discover reasons why it needs to be tweaked. Therefore, making it as easy as possible for Chris to modify the template is more important than any other issues that have been raised -- meaning it makes the most sense for Chris to use a template that he has written and understands.

Past that, there are only a couple minor issues that seem worth taking the time to bring up:

• The infobox needs to be wider rather than narrower. It contains the most important information on the page, so it needs to be at least 33% of the of page width.
• All dragon characters displayed in the the template need to use the .png pictures of the dragon characters instead of the Dragon font. A large fraction of readers probably will not have the Dragon font installed, which is why Lore:Dragon Alphabet no longer uses the font. Furthermore, we should avoid all use of the Dragon font until we get Bethesda's version of the font, because Bethesda's version uses numbers to represent the dipthongs, rather than lowercase letters. When we switch fonts, everything using the fonts is going to be broken.

Chris, if you need help with either of those issues, just ask.

Simply moving forward and skipping the discussion may not be how things were done on UESP a month ago, but a month ago it was possible to wait a week before starting a project. We don't have that luxury right now. Once we get to the point where questions of template styles can even be considered again, then someone can restart this discussion -- if it even matters any more at that point. --Nephele^Talk 15:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Template and pages made. I addressed the dragon font issue by increasing the text size instead (I made it smaller than the dragon font was -- the full size dragon font made the words of the shout became the focus of the template and kept distracting me from readingthe rest of it). Chris3145 21:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Nephele, since you are not an authoritative voice and since your logic of "who starts it finishes it" goes against everything with the wiki, I will change each page to my version of the template when I get the time. Now, Nephele, if you wish to throw more bogus crap at me, then don't waste your time, because I am absolutely done reading your ridiculous books. As an editor of this wiki, I will proceed how I envision it best. We need to have a discussion, not a gross overreach of authority by an editor of this site.

Now, the game has the dragon language (and the logic of having to change it later is baseless) and it has them horizontal (that's how people read). Chris3145 is just throwing a tantrum because he spent hours on end making his, while mine took a few minutes. Also, you yourself stated that I know how to make a template, you just threw a fit when I started placing mine over yours. Now, since we can be in agreement that my template works, we should just use it. elliot (talk) 22:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Chris is the one throwing a tantrum because his template isn't being used? I think chris's template looks better, although it might need a slight tweak, in any case it's not really a big deal. You said that a discussion was needed yet the last thing you said was Now, since we can be in agreement that my template works, we should just use it.RIM 22:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes. And how does it look better? elliot (talk)

It divides each shout into a horizontal line which means that each word and it's details can be read individually.RIM 22:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Having all the information about a single word in the same row as the word seems like a good idea to me. However, I'm not really a fan of any of the proposed templates. IMO, Elliot's template looks better, but I like how the information is organized in Chris's templates. --Fluff 22:45, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

What if there was a way to change the template shown on the page between the two, for example there could be a button or something that would say "click here to change view" or something like that. Otherwise find some way to combine the best parts of both templates into oneRIM 22:50, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(←) What about something like this? This is Elliot's template pivoted. I think it's more natural to read everything about a single dragon word in a row rather than a column. --Fluff 23:28, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Could we have an orderly discussion about this and THEN change the templates when we agreed on this. It would be appreciated over I don't know, a silly edit war? --Ijiero 22:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, so comment on the discussion. elliot (talk) 22:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I've seen the sample templates from Chris. I've not seen anything using a sample template from Elliot; post a link. I think Chris should continue working with his templates. Elliot, you knew that he was working on a dragon shout template, but instead of offering advice or improving the existing template, you decided to create a whole new template. That'd be like decided the Smithing skill page was crap and creating a whole new Smithing skill page instead of editing the existing one. Really, where's the sense in that? Instead of senselessly blanking out the template, Elliot should work with Chris, not against him. --Fluff 22:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The two links are below. Now, I have said it once and I will say it again: the site says If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then don't submit it here.. It doesn't matter how I change it. I change it. elliot (talk) 22:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Indeed you do change it. And as an experienced editor, I'd expect that you'd recognize the difference between a constructive edit and a non-constructive one. Merciless does not mean destructive'. --Fluff 22:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I made it better... how is that destructive? elliot (talk) 22:50, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I think, that this Shout Summary is the best looking template out of the three proposed templates. Which is I think the key decider, because any of them could be made to work surely? I had to look for your example though Elliot, I don't know where the link went of this page for it. --Kiz ^{·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•·} 22:38, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

It's here. The code is, anyway. elliot (talk) 22:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Yep, that's the one i'd found. --Kiz ^{·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•·} 22:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(←) And just for the record, I altered my template to fulfill some of the things Chris wanted. Even after I added those, he found something else wrong with it. To say that I haven't been trying to compromise is misguided. elliot (talk) 23:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Work in progress

Please don't nominate for deletion while it is still a work in progress. Chris3145 06:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I have proposed your template for deletion because all of the information that is provided is contained at SR:Dragon Shouts. The pages were created as redirects to the main page because they won't have enough information to warrant individual pages. It's not worth your time to try to continue this template. elliot (talk) 06:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The main page is starting to get cluttered as we add parenthetical information for every dragon shout. Creating a page for each shout will allow the primary shout page to stay clean and organized, while still allowing for more information to be presented. As people play, more information will appear (durations, ranges, bugs/glitches, etc.) and the individual pages will fill up. It's an Elder Scrolls game. There's enough information for almost anything to have a page. (Note that every single alchemy ingredient in Oblivion has its own page.) Chris3145 06:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, because ingredients are used in all kinds of alchemical recipes and there are 131 of them in Oblivion alone. There are a few shouts; separating them is a waste of time and resources on the wiki. Not only that, but it separates information that should be placed on one page. Your template provides nothing new, so please focus on something that will actually get implemented. So stop changing things without a discussion. This is how it is done; if are so hell bent on changing something, then you are required to discuss before implementing such a proposal since I have objected to it numerous times. elliot (talk) 06:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a lot of information in the template that people would like to see. My template has a place to add the damage, range, or duration for each level of a shout -- information which is not, and should not be, included on the Skyrim:Dragon Shouts page. Having a page for each shout will allow us to remove those parenthetical statements from the main page that are starting to get longer and longer. Also, I wasn't aware anybody had a particular burning desire to cram everything onto one page. There's no policy against making a significant improvement, or creating templates, if there is no apparent conflict over the issue. If you would like, we could see what the community wants.Chris3145 06:59, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(←) (edit conflict) You're not winning me over. We have pages that are insanely massive. Why? Because separating them into individual pages would mess up the information so badly that it would confuse readers. The redirects are used to centralize the information. I think it would be best to correct the shout page before trying to splitting it. If it becomes impossible to hold all of the information (which I am pretty sure it won't), then we could look at moving forward with the individual pages. elliot (talk) 07:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I think the content on Dragon Shouts needs to be split onto individual pages because there is far more information that can be provided in a summary table. There are tips on good situations to use individual shouts, as well as details of the actual effects/durations. It's something that has needed to be done for a couple of weeks, and Chirs3145 should be commended for having the initiative to undertake such a major task, and particularly for undertaking it properly with a brand new template. His work should not be shot down without even taking time to look at pre-existing discussions. There is absolutely no requirement on the wiki that editors must discuss changes before doing them. On the contrary, one of the wiki guidelines is be bold. Not to mention, Chris did start a discussion at Skyrim talk:Dragon Shouts#Pages for shouts. --Nephele^Talk 07:07, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, after I intervened. So it's not a pre-existing discussion. elliot (talk) 07:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

It's not impossible to fit everything, just undesirable. If you think you can add descriptions, effects for each level of a shout, and any glitches associated with each shout to that main page while still having it look good, give it a shot. Chris3145 07:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I created the discussion 10 minutes into the process and before I had seen any of your edits. I didn't think to post it until I had started, and didn't really think the whole thing would get undone and nominated for deletion before it even approached completion. I also didn't think I needed to start a discussion to see if the new pages should be made -- it seemed pretty obvious that they should -- I started it so people could improve the process. Chris3145 07:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Chris, I think you should continue with the work you are doing. You are trying to improve the site, plus by virtue of the number of edits you have been making to Skyrim content, you are more familiar with what needs to be done on the Skyrim pages than Elliot. If Elliot's interference is making it difficult for you to proceed, you may want to set up new versions of the Dragon Shout pages as personal sandboxes (e.g., with name such as User:Chris3145/Animal_Allegiance), allowing you to continue being productive until other editors have a chance to contribute their opinions. Continuing to argue with Elliot is unlikely to be productive. --Nephele^Talk 07:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(←) Putting the personal attack by Nephele aside, I have made my own version of what I think the template should look like, if everyone is so adamant about using it. I think it is better, more flexible, and fits all the information as close to the top of the screen. Nephele, I may not be editing a lot of content, but I know how to make a template. elliot (talk) 07:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

You may not know when pages need to be split, but you do know how to make a template. Add in a spot for information about the power of each particular level, take out the notes section, and possibly take out the bit for each rune/claw mark (assuming that's what the capital lettered words are placeholders for), and you've got it. Chris3145 07:52, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of the notes section on the template. Isn't that what the shout page is supposed to be for? --Fluff 07:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Chris, I need to know how that information is represented before I can put it in there. The template can change, but I don't want to presume anything. If I have that info, we ca put it in. And Fluff, I was thinking the same thing. I just put what was on the tip of my brain. elliot (talk) 07:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The point wasn't to duplicate the information presented on the main shouts page, but to provide information that is relevant for each individual shout. The template just needs a "blank slate" sort of section that will accept whatever the user inputs. Note that Call of Valor has different content in that area than Call Dragon or Aura Whisper. Chris3145 08:18, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(←) I'm getting there. I am just trying to determine what would be best. The bit may need to wait a few. elliot (talk) 08:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay here is a simple example I have come up with. The #explode makes the template easier to use. I am just running into a problem with the double letters, which I may need to fix tomorrow. I need to dig in with the font template. We may just need to use the uploaded images, but I am not a big fan of those. elliot (talk) 08:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I know I'm just a passerby watching this tidbit of drama with slightly morbid curiosity, but for what it's worth, I liked the way Chris had it set up. I'm sure it could be improved like with everything else, but the squabbling and blanking seems childish. 128.54.152.141 09:36, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

(←) I'm turning all the shout pages back into their redirects until a template is decided upon. Chris3145 10:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

My template is preferable because:

1. It doesn't use colors.
2. It does't require all parameters to be filled.
3. It actually looks like an infobox.
4. It contains all necessary information. More can be added if needed.
5. Yours is too simplistic and doesn't cover the required scope.
6. Mine doesn't require three different parameters for each word and each word's multiple instances. (More complicated coding, but easier for other users.)
7. I've been working on templates for years. If I felt yours was better, we would be using it. elliot (talk) 10:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm looking more at layout. I can always rewrite the code. Also, are there any required parameters on mine that you would leave out? Locations 2 and 3 are the only things that you would want to leave out, and it's okay to do so on mine. Also, template use on this wiki does not come down to Elliot's preference.Chris3145 10:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)