Lore talk:Zurin Arctus

Is Arnand the Fox an alias for Arctus?

I believe it is. Just looking at the grammatical structured, it doesn't appear to be two separate entries in a list. But I digress, if it seems too dubious, or if this is considered "original research", I'll see to it personally that it gets taken down. So what are the thoughts on this? — Unsigned comment by MetaCthulhu (talk • contribs) at 23:22 on 17 October 2015‎ (UTC)

Is Zurin Arctus an Imperial?

According to the Pocket Guide to the Empire: 1st Edition (check under the Aldmeri Dominion section), Zurin Arctus is described as "Cyrodilic Grand Vizier Zurin Arctus". Since the Imperials are sometimes called Cyrodiils or Cyrodilics, I think this means Zurin Arctus was an Imperial. 24.167.247.114 02:49, 28 December 2019 (GMT)

On Arnand the Fox and Zurin Arctus

Currently Zurin Arctus is listed as a Breton on the basis of Arnand the Fox being called a Breton folk hero in Interview with the Three Booksellers. This is based on the assumption that Zurin Arctus and Arnand the Fox are the same person, which I believe is false.

The original quote from the text is: "There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Arnand the Fox or should I say Arctus?" which puts Zurin and Arnand in the same line as Ysmir and Pelinal, evidently referencing Before the Ages of Man which has a similar passage: "Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again." This passage has since been confirmed by Michael Kirkbride to not be several names for a single individual, but instead refer to a "composite hero" that consists of several incarnations of the Mortal God, Lorkhan, reincarnating as different individuals at different times.

Furthermore, an archived older draft for Where Were You When the Dragon Broke makes it even clearer that the same thing is occurring in this case as well: "There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Hans the Fox (but, then, this is really my warning to you, Arctus; I now know who you are)." In other words, "Arnand the Fox" did not even exist until the in-game revision of the text, and the original intent behind the line was never to say that Arnand the Fox is an alias used by Zurin Arctus - rather, it was Mannimarco calling out Zurin Arctus for being an avatar of Lorkhan by comparing him to Ysmir, Pelinal, and Hans the Fox, who are all previously established as such in Before the Ages of Man.

This is my argument to debunk that he is a Breton. However, as pointed out above me by another user, the Aldmeri Dominion section of PGE1 refers to Zurin Arctus as "Cyrodiilic Grand Vizier", and on top of that, Zurin Arctus only appears in the Arcturian Heresy after a passage about Talos conquering "the Eastern Heartland", after which "the eastern battlemages" bend their knee and Zurin enters the picture as the Grand Battlemage to crown Hjalti as Emperor Tiber Septim. As such, I put forward the argument that Zurin Arctus was a Heartlander Imperial, or at the very least a "Cyrodiilic" Imperial, as PGE1 also makes reference to "age old aristocracy" of battlemages in Cyrodiil's ruling classes.

However, I understand that this conclusion is also based on inference from multiple texts, so I think the best compromise would be to just put his race back as "Unknown". -- SaltyMapleSyrup, 15:22, 23 January 2025 (EEST)

I'd agree with setting his base back to unknown given the uncertainty on his relation to Arnand and the possibility of him being Cyrodiilic. It's not clear cut enough to say one way or another. The Entity (talk) 14:09, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I personally disagree due to certain similarities with the name and the lack of comma. But regardless, I think if we had to we should change his race back to "Man" rather than unknown, as that much is certain. Tarponpet (talk) 14:13, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not opposed to removing the Breton race from the box, however the reasons put forth above are faulty. Previous drafts of the final copy of the book do not override what appears in-game. These previous iterations are just cut content and shouldn't be used to implicate that Arnand the Fox may not be Zurin Arctus, considering WWYWTDB and Three Booksellers are the only two mentions of that title anywhere (that I know of). Even MK's later-released full copy has Arnand the Fox rather than Hans, implying that he signed off on the change, meaning his original intention does not matter. Mindtrait0r (talk) 17:16, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I would say that it is likely the best option for it to be ambiguous as just human, due to the points raised above. I would also like to add that Schick's (albeit unimplemented) intention of Abnur Tharn becoming Zurin Arctus supports the position that he is Imperial, as Abnur is Nibenese and could not become a Breton (unless he lies about it like Lady Belain did). This isn't my main reason for supporting the ambiguity, but rather a small aside or "bonus" point, with my main reason being the one listed in the initial post. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:20, 23 January 2025 (UTC)