Lore talk:First Era

Inconsistency

The entry for 1E 361 has 'Marukh' and 'Maruhk' as spellings of the monkey prophet. Does anybody know which is correct? --Rpeh^Talk 07:56, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

Both spellings seem to be used in the game texts, as well as both 'Marukhati' and 'Maruhkati' selectives. The most common spelling is 'Marukh,' used multiple times in Cleansing of the Fane and On Oblivion, Rislav the Righteous, and The Doors of Oblivion. The only instance of 'Maruhk,' at least in all the books included in Oblivion, is a single instance in The Last King of the Ayleids. As for 'Marukhati'/'Maruhkati' selectives, Glarthir is the only person to mention them, and he probably isn't the most reliable source for information ;) So based on that survey, I'd suggest 'Marukh' should be adopted as the standard spelling. --Nephele^Talk 23:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

I don't know who's more nerd-like - me for spotting the inconsistency or you for finding the answer so quickly! Now updated... --Rpeh^Talk 03:49, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

What is a monkey prophet? — Unsigned comment by 64.131.11.144 (talk)

Another title for Marukh ;) Perhaps because Marukh was of the Imga race (see also Tamriel Talk:Imga). --Nephele^Talk 22:55, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

Reman Dates

The sources for the regnal dates of the Remans, along with some births and death, are three tombs in Sancre Tor, Oblivion. Activating the tombs gives the followind messages:

• Here lies Reman of Cyrodiil. He defeated the Akaviri Horde and brought peace to Tamriel. 2762.
• Here lies Reman II of Cyrodiil, crowned Emperor of Tamriel in the year 2812. He fell in battle against the Dark Elves, in the fifty-seventh year of his age, after a reign of thirty-nine years and eight months wanting a day.
• Here lies Reman III, last Emperor of the Cyrodiils, the scourge of the Dark Elves, who was cruelly slain by treachery, in the year 2920. He reigned forty-three years.

So. If Reman II was crowned in 2812 and reigned for just over 39 years, he died in 2851. He was 56 (in the 57th year), meaning he was born in 2795. Reman III died in 2920 after a 43 year reign, which means he was crowned in 2877. That means we have a 16 year gap between the death of Reman II and the accession of Reman III. Any ideas? –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 03:15, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

It is possible that there was a regent during that time, a power struggle, or even other Emperors who are not well-known because they did not take the name Reman. This would account for the other gaps as well and would explain why such an important dynasty only had three rulers.24.31.156.165 14:45, 7 November 2008 (EST)

I'd agree that a regent is possible (it was my favourite guess). I'm not sure about the other theories for a gap this small though, or that they could have left so little impression on the historical record. My other theory is that it's just a mistake. The regent idea only really flies if Reman III was very young when his father died. I couldn't find a birth year for him - any ideas on that one? The mistake idea isn't impossible - all it takes is somebody to trip up when back-calculating "assumed the throne in the year.." and "born in the year..." and you get your mistake. If anybody can dig out any other clues I'd love to hear them. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 16:02, 7 November 2008 (EST)

Death and descendants of Reman I

I just fixed some confusing dates by TIL cross-referencing. There is a lone interval between the death of Reman Cyrodiil and Reman II. There must have been other emperors in-between. For perspective, remember that 90% of Tamriellic history is a complete blank, some of it vitally important. The PGE tells us that the Remans conquered "all of Tamriel." For such a momentous event to be completely mysterious is unthinkable, and leads many to suppose that this is outdated lore.76.179.191.245 15:44, 16 December 2008 (EST)

That edit makes no sense. You now have Reman II being born 32 years after the death of his father. Unless the Remans had some kind of frozen sperm storage and artificial insemination facility, that seems unlikely. I've yet to read of any such facility in the available materials. The idea that the whole Akaviri invasion was over in a year seems implausible too - an invasion that had reached as far as Pale Pass would have taken far longer. Compare to Uriel V's invasion of Akarir - after two years he was still stuck mainly around the coast. I'm inclined to revert the edit. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 16:10, 16 December 2008 (EST)

I wasn't under the impression that the year was the debatable part. Check the TIL timeline (where a lot of this stuff came from) there is a discrepancy. I too would expect the war to take more than a year, but does the prior date refer to the Akaviri invasion or the political response to it, the reunification? Something that would surely take more than a year would be Reman's reorganization of the Imperial Legion and integration into the court of the defeated Akaviri. Also, if he died the year of Pale Pass, who conquered Valenwood? It fell before Reman II was throned. All signs point to the TIL death date being correct. From this, we must also assume that his son was not Reman II. The names of intervening emperors are lost to history, much as the Alessian rulers were. If this is surprising, remember that the name Reman itself has incredible significance to Cyrodiil. It's magical. If he named a forgettable successor something different, sources may not have considered him important. This new date discrepancy is unsurprising, given the gap between Reman II and Reman III. It is a valuable hint. What we need now is to find whatever source this came from and find out for sure.76.179.191.245 16:47, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Wait a minute, I only moved the birth of Reman II by one year. I actually moved the death of Reman I CLOSER to the birth of his "son." So either some very active regents conquered Valenwood and ruled for 30-110 years, then produced a legitimate heir, or there were other hereditary rulers between.76.179.191.245 16:51, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Aha. Read this:

"I believe you're right, your imperial majesty," said Versidue-Shaie. "These are treacherous times, and we must take precautions to see that Morrowind does not win this war, either on the field or by more insidious means. That is why I would suggest that you not lead the vanguard into battle. I know you would want to, as your illustrious ancestors Reman I, Brazollus Dor, and Reman II did, but I fear it would be foolhardy. I hope you do not mind me speaking frankly like this."

That's from 2920, the potentate speaking to Reman III. I think that is solid evidence that there existed an emperor between Reman I and Reman III named Brazollus Dor. This accounts for the two year gaps. Note that he is an ancestor, not a regent. This is cool, as it is not widely known. I have heard it discussed, and this guy never came up. 76.179.191.245 17:00, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Good spot! I was too busy searching for "Pale Pass". That would make a lot more sense. I've added Brazollus Dor to the note about Reman II. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 05:01, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Let's be careful, though. If I'm not mistaken, Dor could fit into either gap- he could be the son of Reman Cyrodiil, or the son of Reman II. Heck, monarchies being what they are, more than one emperor could have ruled during each gap. I don't think we can be sure who begot who, making this pretty close to a Tamriellic telenovela.76.179.191.245 13:49, 17 December 2008 (EST)

True, but given the order in which Versidue-Shaie names Reman III's predecessors the former seems to make more sense. There are more convenient ways of speaking the list if it was in a different order. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 13:54, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Edit: Nevermind, Looking at all these numbers and dates has made me cros-seyed. And not the first time. The timeline appears correct, though we are making some very small assumptions.76.179.191.245 14:17, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Time travelling elves

1E 416 — Dark Elves first appear in written records.

The Dark Elves appear in the written record during the War of Succession which destroyed the First Empire of the Nords. "And seeing that the Nords were divided, and weak, the Dunmer took counsel among themselves, and gathered together in their secret places, and plotted against the kinsmen of Borgas, and suddenly arose, and fell upon the Nords, and drove them from the land of Dunmereth with great slaughter."

Could someone tell me the source that this comes from? Dark Elves can't appear in written records before they existed. If they do, it is clearly just someone using the wrong noun, by mistake or for recognition, in or even out of game, and probably shouldn't be mentioned. Unless someone can show me the book and reach a conclusion, I'll just check the corresponding TIL timeline entry and fix it. Temple-Zero 20:49, 12 November 2008 (EST)

It's from PGE 1:

"When first we hear of the Dark Elves, they were divided into numerous petty clans, half of whom were at war with the other half at any given moment. The Nord Sagas speak of Dark Elven warriors pledging themselves to any Nord chieftain who went to war with their clan enemies, a circumstance which undoubtedly facilitated their Conquest by the Nords. The Dark Elves appear in the written record in 1E416, during the War of Succession which destroyed the First Empire of the Nords: "And seeing that the Nords were divided, and weak, the Dunmer took counsel among themselves, and gathered together in their secret places, and plotted against the kinsmen of Borgas, and suddenly arose, and fell upon the Nords, and drove them from the land of Dunmereth with great slaughter." Thus ended the First Empire of men, at the hands of the Dark Elves. It is not for another two centuries that we first hear of the Tribunal, who perhaps arose to prominence in the ruin wrought by the first eruption of Vvardenfell, which laid waste at least half of Morrowind, and led to a permanent shift of population south towards the Deshaan, the broad southern plain which gradually slopes down into the dismal swamps of Black Marsh. Be that as it may, under the Tribunal cult the Dark Elven clans were finally welded into one nation, although clan rivalry remains bitter up to the present day, and the clans cooperate with one another only with reluctance."

However, the PGEs were all typed in by hand. I don't have the physical copy of the PGE, and so can't double-check it. Any volunteers? --GuildKnight^Talk2me 21:32, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Scanned copies of the Morrowind pages are hosted on the old site, including in particular the page with this passage. It seems that 1E416 is what was stated in PGE1. --Nephele^Talk 22:04, 12 November 2008 (EST)

1st PGE? Say no more. Of all the texts, it has the most leeway to call certain things that don't sit well as error or bias. Michael Kirkbride may have known what the buildings in Morrowind looked like back then, but Tear was in the ashlands and there was no such thing as the Alessian rebellion. The histories of both the Dark Elves and the Nords who wrote about them were in their earliest form. I'm guessing that the Chimer were not yet created at Bethesda, and that they are called Dunmer for that reason. The timeline entry sources outdated material.Temple-Zero 22:07, 12 November 2008 (EST)

(outdent)TZ: In my opinion, it would be reasonable to bring to the reader's attention that this entry conflicts with other sources. However, we cannot completely omit an official source because you're "guessing that the Chimer were not yet created at Bethesda". The most sensible thing to do, I would think, would be to note in that entry the reasons that this may be an error in the source, give the sources that conflict, and let the reader come to a logical conclusion.

Neph: It's great to know we have copies I can check. Thanks for pointing that out! --GuildKnight^Talk2me 22:15, 12 November 2008 (EST)

We can play it safe like that, but I think you will agree that the entry did not belong on the timeline as a major event anyway. "First recorded in history?" Excuse me, o Seal-Clubbing Lord of the Horned Helmet, but I'm sure the Velothi were very well-documented, seeing as they split off from the Altmer thousands of years ago using as inspiration the teachings of Daedra Lords and philosophical concepts derived from the most learned body in existence. This is the bias of the PGE. Also, the quote, along with the mention of the Succession War could have aided the explanation in the prior entry, but was redundant on its own. If we want to mention anything about the use of the wrong name for the race, it should be in an article, I think.

In my book this isn't a conflict. You have to make the obvious choice in cases of outdated information at times. I would be overjoyed to go flood the Lore:Cyrodiil page with stuff about the mysterious absence of jungle, river dragons, rice plantations and cultural diversity, and this is the same sort of situation.Temple-Zero 22:24, 12 November 2008 (EST)

I think you're right that a mention the use of the wrong name for the race would be more suitable in a different article. It was a rather redundant entry, as well as confusing after reading the preceding entry, and it's removal for that reason is perfectly understandable; I simply didn't want us to remove information because one of our editors has "discredited" an official source. Thanks for your diligence on these pages; it has helped tremendously, and I have learned a great deal following up on your posts. --GuildKnight^Talk2me 22:38, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Me discrediting the 1st PGE? hehe. I love it to death and will never say a thing against it. :p Temple-Zero 22:39, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Battle of Red Mountain

The way I understood it, The Battle of Red Mountain is not "also known as War of the First Council," it is a battle that took place within that war. Please correct me if I'm wrong. --GuildKnight^Talk2me 23:09, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Good point. I just thought that Lorkhan War sounded terribly lame (and unfamiliar). The Red mountain entry should specify that it was the conclusion of the war, not towards its end, and the volcano erupted after the battle, not years before.Temple-Zero 23:34, 12 November 2008 (EST)

The Chimer and Dwemer unite

It is listed that Nerevar and Dumac made an alliance in the year 1E 401. Where exactly does this information come from? -- Kertaw48 15:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I was also wondering this. I couldn't find the cite, and many pages seem to be using this date. Legoless 16:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I tried to find who put this information in the article, but apparently it's been here ever since the article was created 6 years ago. I've googled it too, but there is no explanation or references for that year. What happens if we can't find it? -- Kertaw48 16:36, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Well if it's completely made up then it should be removed. However, I doubt that it just popped up from nowhere. Legoless 16:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The alliance is mentioned at least once in one of those documents Vivec gave to the nerevarine/hortator. Not sure if it mentioned the date. — Unsigned comment by 85.191.86.135 (talk) at 18:05 on 25 August 2011 (GMT)

(←) Dead topic, I know, but I thought I'd give notice that, given the lack of a source, I'm going to remove all traces of this from the lore section. There was enough erroneous information on the old site that we can't presume it was accurate. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 04:29, 26 June 2013 (GMT)

King Harald (Hand-Free)

I only have circumstantial evidence, but I'm almost positive King Harald's nickname (or actual surname) was Hand-Free, and he had another son not mentioned here, a bastard child named Olmgerd the Outlaw. Evidence:

In the Morrowind quest Ennbjof's Nord Burial, a guy named Ennbjof tells a story about "the First Age when the sons of Harald Hand-Free" ruled. King Harald united Skyrim for the first time, so he sounds pretty important; important enough that, hundreds of years of later, Nords would best know his offspring as the "sons of Harald." All the other details Ennbjof gives you end up confirmed, so he seems as trustworthy as any other in-game source.

There seem to be no other suspects in the known lore. I'm not aware of any other Skyrim kings named Harald.

If there was another Harald, he would have had to have existed in almost the exact same time frame. Hand-Free's son died during or soon after the Skyrim Conquests succeeded in conquering Morrowind (1E 240), and King Harald died merely 19 years before that.

Besides all that, there's also a possible discrepancy in the lore pages regarding King Harald. They credit both him and his ancestor, Ysgramor, with driving the elves out of Skyrim. I'm no lore guru, so I'm not making any changes here. But if one of you more experienced folks could corroborate some of this and make any applicable changes or additions, that would be great.Minor Edits 03:40, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

In the PGE 1st edition, it is mentioned that Harald had three sons that outlived him. Since he died in 1E 221 and Morrowind wasn't conquered until 1E 240, it is safe to assume that his sons (emphasis on the plural as at least two kings, Hjalmer and Vrage, exchanged the throne during that period) were the ones that conquered Morrowind, just as described by Ennbjof:

You know the Nord once ruled this land, don't you? Back when these Dark Elves were squatting around campfires in nix skins? Back in the First Age when the sons of Harald Hand-Free ruled the northern coasts of Tamriel, during the Skyrim Conquests? Well, I bet you didn't know Olmgerd the Outlaw, Harald's bastard, was buried as befits a Nord lord's son, in his ship, in a tomb deep in the mother rock.

Since the Nords haven't conquered anything outside Skyrim during Harald's reign, for his son Olmgerd to be buried on Vvardenfell in Morrowind would mean that Olmgerd outlived his father, and died after the Skyrim Conquests.

The years match quite well. I'd say not only that Ennbjof is a valid source of information and that Harald was indeed also known as Hand-Free (a very customary surname for Nords), but also that Olmgerd is the third son that outlived Harald as mentioned by the PGE. -- Kertaw48 08:08, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that; that book also answered my confusion about elves, no issue there.Minor Edits 08:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim empire

In the article, it is stated that, during the war of succession, the skyrim empire lost cyrodill, high rock and morrowind. However, was cyrodill under skyrim rule in the first place? I was under the impression that saint allesia founded her own empire, and I can find no evidence of that empire being conquered by the nords. Also, while it later mentions clan Direnni conquering High Rock, it also mentions that clan direnni took control of High Rock before the nordic war of succesion. This seems contradictive — Unsigned comment by 85.191.86.135 (talk) at 18:05 on 25 August 2011 (GMT)

The First Nordic Empire only controlled parts of northern Cyrodiil (according to Frontier, Conquest, and Accommodation: A Social History of Cyrodiil). I'm not too familiar with the Direnni, but I believe the "conquering" mentioned later in the article is the clan retaking the land from the Men. If you can make either of the sentences clearer, feel free to edit the article. --Legoless 22:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm pretty good with my Clan Direnni history, and from what I can gather the Aldmer conquered High Rock before the War of Succession. Later, as described in A History of Daggerfall, the Nords conquered High Rock first. However the Direnni (namely Ryain Direnni) had a presence in the courts of High Rock since at least the 460s of the First Era, according to the book Rislav The Righteous. The book also states around this time Ryain bought the land of the Isle of Balfiera, and "gradually conquering all of High Rock and large parts of Hammerfell and Skyrim"; this, 1E 477, was the peak of Direnni power. The Direnni Empire seems to have been impressive indeed, though it was brief (collapsing around 1E 500). So, all in all the page is wrong. The Direnni conquered High Rock 57 years after the end of the War of Succession. However, Frontier, Conquest shows that the Direnni have had power in the region (though we do not know how much; where the source about "political maneuvering and questionable machinations" came from, I can only guess. Like Legoless said, you can tweak the setences if you like. I may get around to it (assuming you don't) later today or sometime tomorrow.--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 22:43, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Sun Death event

I came to this page from a link in the lore: nirnroot page called Sun Death event but I can't seem to find any reference to it here. — Unsigned comment by 86.99.66.157 (talk) at 08:10 on 3 December 2012‎

From the article:

1E 668 — The War of the First Council; Vvardenfell erupts.

The first eruption of Morrowind's gigantic volcano, since known as Red Mountain. Ash spewed into the sky hides the sun for a year.

Hope this helps. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 08:54, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

Tense Confusion

Some entries are described in the past tense, others in the present tense. I demand consistency! Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 18:35, 6 December 2012 (GMT)

Removing Unsourced Claims

Just FYI, I will be removing any unsourced claims in my review of the page. So if anyone wants to save the notes on Belharza, Ami-El, etc., now would be the time to find out where they came from. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 22:10, 14 July 2013 (GMT)

Want to just move them to a sandbox or something for later review? If you don't want to use one of your own I believe Dii is currently available for use :P Jeancey (talk) 22:14, 14 July 2013 (GMT)

My plan is to note the dates in my later edit summary. They'll remain in the history, so it won't be too much trouble to restore them when and if we get corroboration. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 22:27, 14 July 2013 (GMT)

Done (I think). Most if not all of the stuff I removed has been on the page since it was created and it has all been marked as needing citations for years. We can't continue presuming that stuff from the old site was correct. If any of it was accurate, well, now people have some incentive to cite sources. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 02:59, 16 July 2013 (GMT)

Faulty Interpretation of the Windhelm Plaques

I think I have made a mistake in interpreting the dates of the Windhelm plaques at the Palace of the Kings in Windhelm. Long story short, the lore surrounding Wulfharth dictates that the starting dates on the plaques must mark the time when the individual began his reign at the Palace of the Kings, not when that person became High King as several pages have been assuming. Sorry about the length of this.

I'm hoping I wasn't the first to assert and spread this mistake on the UESP, but I think this is a subtle distinction, as it can only be gleaned from a close reading of several sources, but it's also an important one, as it impacts several pages. I don't consider this original research because I think it's self-evident that sources should not be read to conflict with each other if there is a ready explanation for the discrepancy, even if that explanation is not explicit. Nevertheless, people may reasonably differ on whether an explanation is "ready" or not, so I thought I should spell this out somewhere before making substantial alterations to several lore pages.

According to Olaf One-Eye's plaque in Windhelm, his reign began in 1E 420. But he was already the Jarl of Whiterun before 1E 420, when the Pact of Chieftains was formed and he was made High King. Ergo, the plaque in Windhelm is only measuring from the time when Olaf took up residence there (as I believe was the custom for most High Kings in the First and Second eras, at least).

A note currently at Lore:Battle of Glenumbra Moors:

"When the battle took place is not clear. The Last King of the Ayleids gives the date as 1E 482. Five Songs of King Wulfharth notes that King Wulfharth took the throne following Hoag Merkiller's death at the battle, and a stone etching in TES V: Skyrim says Wulfharth's reign began in 1E 480."

This is treating the starting date on Wulfharth's plaque as the beginning of his reign as High King, and obviously, that doesn't mesh with the other sources. But the harmonious explanation, the one which treats all sources as accurate, is that Wulfharth became Jarl of Windhelm in 1E 480, and then High King in 1E 482.

Even absent this conflict in the timeline, what we know about Skyrim's political system at the time makes this explanation the most likely. We know the holds are fairly autonomous around this time, as the Nords had only recently reunited at this point after the prolonged War of Succession. The holds remain distinct from one another. The point being, we have plenty of reason to assume already that the plaques at the Palace of the Kings would measure the leader they're memorializing from the perspective of that person's reign over Windhelm, not from the start of that person's reign over all of Skyrim. But because of the discrepancy regarding Wulfharth, the only assumption I'm really relying up is that all the sources are accurate. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 06:33, 15 July 2013 (GMT)

A Note from Lore:Harald:

• Skorm Snow-Strider's Journal indicates "Lord Harald" was in a leadership position, likely as a Jarl, in 1E 139, before he became High King. According to Geirmund's Epitaph, Harald's personal battlemage was Archmage of Windhelm, and since Harald was a direct descendant of Ysgramor, who reigned from Windhelm, it is probable Harald was Jarl of Windhelm before becoming High King.

Harald being Jarl of Windhelm is just a speculation which makes sense given the evidence, but would be a point against your theory, as the Jarl of Windhelm would also take residence in the Palace of Kings. -- SarthesArai ^Talk 16:50, 15 July 2013 (GMT)

Yeah, I wrote that note. It needs revising, as it's too speculative. Harald wasn't necessarily a Jarl before becoming High King. Snow-Strider's journal refers to him as "Lord Harald" in 1E 139. He was in a leadership position over those troops, but he may have just been a prince and heir-apparent at the time. It's common for such nobleman to serve in the military. Anyways, if Harald's father was High King and Jarl of Windhelm, then Harald likely became both Jarl of Windhelm and High King of Skyrim in the same year, 1E 143. And, of course, there's also a chance that Harald was a jarl of a different hold before becoming High King and moving to the Palace of the Kings. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 18:32, 15 July 2013 (GMT)

Death of Prince Juilek

Multiple statements on the page make reference to both Reman III and his son Prince Juilek being honorably executed by the morag tong, however, Juilek was not executed by the Morag tong, but rather murdered by Miramor - a treacherous cyrodiilic soldier who was in the personal employ of emperoress Tavia via her retainer Zuuk. Miramor was used by the morag tong to test the personal security of reman III, but was never in their employ as an assassin. All of this per 2920. — Unsigned comment by 24.210.53.125 (talk) at 05:39 on 18 July 2018 utc

Records of Skingrad

I've altered the wording for the entry on Skingrad for the year 1085 as the previous wording was inconsistent with the known existence of Rislav of Skingrad in the 5th century.--Draugluin (talk) 02:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)