Lore talk:Elder Council

There are numerous references to the Elder Council and their actions in the past in the text Where were you when the Dragon Broke?. As I lack a sufficient understanding of Elder Scrolls lore to discern what is relevant, and what actually appertains to the Elder Council, I would recommend someone else read it over and submit their findings. --- Booyah boy 12:31, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Looks good to me :) --Aristeo 15:15, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Thank you, Aristeo...may I assume then that you will be doing so? --- Booyah boy

Inquiry:

I would like to know what thoughts everyone has on the creation of a General:Elder Council category. I have been unable to find one on the site as is, and having written an article to post herein as content for this page (which I shall shortly), believe it would better suit a general tab than one meted out specifically for Oblivion. Any thoughts?

Booyah boy 13:14, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I just placed the {{Oblivion Trail}} template on top of the page, which put the page under Category:Oblivion. --Aristeo 15:15, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Wonderful! Thank you, I shall have to learn how to do that... --- Booyah boy 15:23, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Inquiry II:

Researching the Elder Council has led to my encountering numerous instances of an "Imperial Council" governing in Tamriel with the Emperor; are they - the Imperial and Elder Council's - one and the same? I would appreciate the aid of a loremaster in this. — Unsigned comment by Booyah boy (talk)

I think they are the same. --Aristeo 15:15, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Do you know of any article I could use to confirm such? If so - and I hate to ask this of you, lest it be an inconvenience - might I ask that you add said information (that they are one and the same) to the article?

If you find yourself stretched for time, I'll be happy to do so later on.

Either way, thank you. --- Booyah boy 15:23, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

They are the same council. There is a reason the Elder council is based out of cyrodiil (the imperial province) because during the oblivion crisis and the time leading up to the crisis the Imperial force or (empire) ruled most of their continent (tamriel). This is a horrible analogy but it is still a good one, imagine the empire as the nazis during world war 2. Instead of taking over the land surrounding them they instead got all the other provinces to swear allegiance to them (with some exceptions of course) and announced themselves the sovereign rulers of Tamriel I guess. So when they refer to the 'Imperial council' they basically say the 'elder council thats full of imperials' because back then the elder council acted as the authoritative body over all the provinces. Until the Great War with the Thalmor.

Tamriel

Would this page actually be more appropriate as Tamriel:Elder Council? Alot of the new material is of more general interest than just Oblivion, and would seem to belong in the Tamriel namespace. --Nephele 15:35, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

It might be. There is some crossover between games. Ocato was the Imperial Battlemage during the Morrowind time frame. Quillan^Talk 15:41, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

That is precisely what I was asking after in my first inquiry, having noted a General:Elder Council category would more appropriately fit this article, than one specifically focused on Oblivion (Tamriel basically taking the place of a "General" category). --- Booyah boy 01:35, 10 August 2006 (EDT)

I wondered as much. I'll go ahead and do some rearranging, links, etc.: move this page to Lore:Elder Council, but transclude the content back to Oblivion:Elder Council (so you can read this info on the oblivion page, but also any info specific to the game can be added in). --Nephele 01:55, 10 August 2006 (EDT)

Thank you, Nephele, that sounds like the perfect solution. --- Booyah boy 01:58, 10 August 2006 (EDT)

15 Years?

"At the end of the Third Era the Elder Council was led by High Chancellor Ocato, an Altmer who is said to have been the primary force behind the day-to-day governing of the Empire for the fifteen years preceeding Emperor Uriel Septim VII's death."

Where does the 15 years figure come from? AFAIK, Oblivion has been the last thing to come out so how does anyone know Ocato didn't rule for 50 years or get assassinated right after Oblivion? 173.66.234.111 12:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

There is material somewhere that says Ocato has been making most decisions since the Simulacrum.132.162.76.105 18:15, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I've Found the actual source for the Tharn Family corruption being the actual cause of the alliance war, but its Uol can I get a speedy confirmantion if its okay?

Yeah there is a youttube video I've found it does not appear to be on the Zenimax website anymore but its on the game informers youtube that lists the actual reasons for the Alliance war and it does confirm the Tharns and their Daedric worship were the reason why the alliances invaded Cyrodiil. It maybe should be made into a general article as well. Its called the The Elder Scrolls Online Alliances at War Trailer and it talks about it. Before it was listing events of Eso which did not have any of this information in it. So it has to be an Uol, so is it okay for me to use this Uol on this page and on the Empire of Cyrodiil page?.TheVampKnight (talk) 08:18, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

It's not UOL since its published on the official Bethesda channel, it would only be unofficial if it was like Lawerence's Geek & Sundry interview hosted on a third-party channel (cited on Lore:Mace of Molag Bal). This source is fine to be cited normally. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:08, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

So how do I go about adding it in as a source?TheVampKnight (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

The Elder Council is not the Imperial Court

Or at least there is absolutely no evidence for it, the dialogues of Ria Silmane referenced as the source for this claim although they talk about both the Imperial Court and the Council, there is no real reason to believe that the Court and the Council are the same thing, and the Court is certainly a court in the traditional sense. Therefore there is no reason to say as well that the Eternal Champion was a member of the Council may it be on this article or on the one dedicated to the Champion. So every association between the two institution in my opinion should be removed due to the clear lack of evidence of their connection, in this article, in the faction page, and in the article concerning the Eternal Champion. — Unsigned comment by 41.213.236.178 (talk) at 13:27 on 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Here's a reference to the Imperial Court that mentions Abnur Tharn having years of political experience in it. Abnur himself uses the terms Imperial court and Elder Council in the same breath:

"Well, if you must pry. I am Chancellor to the Elder Council and Overlord of Nibenay, but of all my titles, the greatest is my family name: Tharn. We are the greatest of the noble houses, with seats at the Imperial court for countless centuries."

The two terms are used alongside one another in Biography of the Wolf Queen:

"In any event, both she and her son Uriel were visiting the Imperial court in 3E 112 when Antiochus died, and immediately challenged the rule of his daughter and heir, Kintyra. Potema's speech to the Elder Council is perhaps helpful to students of public speaking." Mindtrait0r (talk) 01:34, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

I know of several people who are most definitely members of the Imperial Court but were not members of the Elder Council. Hierem who was prime minister, an unnamed minister of war, Excoraeus Tharn who was minister of punition, Simocles Quo who was master of cuisine, and Celdina. Moricar also had witchfolk from the Reach, mystics, charlatans, favor-seekers, and influence-peddlers in his court. Savirien-Chorak (talk) 06:20, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

Where is it said that these people are not in the Elder Council? Mindtrait0r (talk) 19:59, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

In fact, I'd say Hierem is further evidence they are the same. It is said he convinced the Council to accept Titus Mede as emperor, which implies he was on the council to do so. Mindtrait0r (talk) 22:09, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Lack of evidence that they are not the same cannot be used in lieu of actual evidence that they are the same. By standard definition, a royal court is the attendants, the courtiers and the retinue, in addition to those with official appointments. So I think it's reasonable to assume that the Elder Council is part of the Imperial Court, but not that the entire Imperial Court is involved in the Elder Council. --Enodoc (talk) 13:14, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Lord of Souls clearly says that he was able to smooth over the conquest because of his many connections; the book never implies that he was a member, so that is not evidence that they are the same. Moricar rewarded Celdina with a minor court appointment and Chief Councilor Lovidicus seems to have believed that she was one of Moricar's advisors, which pretty much says that she was not a member of the Elder Council. Also, the chief councilor would know if someone was a member of the Elder Council. It doesn't have to state that Simocles Quo was not a member of the Elder Council because the master of cuisine would not have been a member of the Elder Council. For the unnamed minister of war and Excoraeus Tharn, I suppose nothing states that they were not members but nothing states they were members either. None of these people are implied to be members of the Elder Council, but they were members of the Imperial Court: Emilia Polus, Reman II's court painter; King Dro'Zel, an advisor in Reman III's court; Sonolia Vatia, a scribe in the court of Brazollus Dor; and Beragon, a scribe in Moricar's court. Savirien-Chorak also offered to make Nynelle Dumaris his court poet. Leovic's steward, Farrul Lupus, is explicitly stated to have not been a member of the Elder Council, although he is not a confirmed member of the Imperial Court; stewards were normally members of a court in the real world.

In the Biography of the Wolf Queen, which you already mentioned, it states: "Her younger brothers Cephorus and Magnus were born much later, so for years she was the only child in the Imperial Court." I am sure that Potema was not a member of the Elder Council when she was a child. The Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Cyrodiil uses the term with no reference to the Elder Council: "In the Imperial Court, there is thankfully no such tragedy. While the Emperor chose not to remarry following the Empress's death more than fifty years ago, she left to him three healthy boys, who have spent their adult years learning the art of politics from their masterful liege and father." The Emperor of the Villa uses Imperial court in the sense of a physical location: "For the last twenty years of Emperor Brazollus's reign, the Villa Doria served as the Imperial court, although little official business was actually conducted there."

Those two sentences from the Biography of the Wolf Queen that you quoted before do not refer to the same thing. The first sentence refers to the physical imperial court, meaning the Imperial Palace, while the second sentence is about Potema giving a later speech to the Elder Council. Savirien-Chorak (talk) 17:07, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

(←) Responding to Enodoc: I agree with your first sentence, I was just responding to Chorak's claim that they knew the people they listed were not in the Council.

Responding to Chorak: Why would Lovidicus believing her to be a Prist of Dagon in Moricar's court mean she wasn't on the Elder Council? Why can the Master of Cuisine not be an Elder Council member? Again, I never said they had to be stated to be in the Council, I was just questioning your earlier claim that you knew they were not members. While generally I would view a child in the Elder Council as odd, I think it makes sense since she was an Imperial Princess.

Some further sources which, in my opinion, suggest the two entities being the same: An Interview with Countess Caro, which refers to the Elder Council as 'court' several times, and Audiences with the Longhouse Emperors, which, in its opening paragraph, describes a scene during an Elder Council convention where Durcorach is nervous, and says he knew little of the procedures of the Imperial court. Mindtrait0r (talk) 03:39, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

During the time that Celdina was a member of the Imperial Court, Councilor Lovidicus believed that she was simply one of Moricar's advisors, but he did not actually know what she did, and it was only long after she left the court that he came to the conclusion that she was a priest of Mehrunes Dagon in Moricar's court. The Master of Cuisine would not be a member of the Elder Council because they are politicians who oversee the administration of the Empire while the Master of Cuisine is a chef. Potema was not a member of the Elder Council even though she was an imperial princess, because there is no reason for a child to be on the council that oversees the Empire's administration. 

An Interview with Countess Caro doesn’t ever use "court" to refer to the Elder Council. The first instance of court is seemingly referring to Leyawiin's comital court. The second instance either once again refers to Leyawiin's comital court or it refers to the Imperial Court and if it does refer to the Imperial Court, then that doesn’t prove anything, since Abnur Tharn, like all members of the Elder Council, is both a member of the Elder Council and the Imperial Court. Audiences with the Longhouse Emperors doesn’t say that it was an Elder Council convention; it actually says that it was an audience which in real life typically took place in a throne room. I don’t see anywhere in that book where it says that the Imperial Court and Elder Council are the same.

If you are going to continue to be illogical, then I am not going to respond again. Celdina, Potema, and Simocles Quo were obviously not members of the Elder Council and I shouldn’t have to debate with you about that.Savirien-Chorak (talk) 16:41, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

It's clear we have different interpretations of both the text and the scope of the Elder Council. Not once have I been illogical (I have backed up every statement I've made with a source). Saying otherwise is just childish. Not once in all of my time debating on the wiki have I ever felt the need to call the person on the other side illogical. I expect the same of you. But nevertheless, I'll await further input on this matter since you are unwilling to discuss in good faith. Mindtrait0r (talk) 19:17, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry I should not have called you illogical, but is it logical to consider the idea that the Master of Cuisine and Potema as a child were members of the Elder Council? I don't feel it is. Savirien-Chorak (talk) 23:59, 23 April 2025 (UTC)