Lore talk:Ehlnofex/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Lore talk:Ehlnofex discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Needing Update

The Ayleid words are largely outdated, and there are now more [ayleid] words known, and also the translations of the Ayleid words on this page are mostly incorrect (outdated). - The Old Ye Bard 09:01, 6 May 2007

Inwah?

I don't see where this word comes from. It is n'wah not inwah. 98.203.137.245 13:48, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

Agreed. It's nowhere in the dialogue for MW or OB so I took it off. Thanks. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:18, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

Sloadish and Yoku

Yoku and sloadish should be taken out of the Akaviri area,they aren't any of the four known species on Akavir.

I definitely agree on Yoku - I'm pretty sure that's from Yokuda, origin of the Redguards, which was to the west of Tamriel, while Akavir is to the east, nowhere near. Sloads I'm pretty sure do live in Akavir, but I don't know if their language has any relation to the Ehlnofex languages. (Can they even pronounce words the way we do, given that they're basically giant slugs? Are there even any known Sloadish words? I thought they communicated telepathically most of the time.) --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 23:45, 5 May 2008 (EDT)

If I remember correctly,the sloads live on a set of islands south of tamriel.Yokunda was(before it sunk) indeed far west of tamriel and Akavir is far east.In "Mysterious Akavir",it doesn't list sload as one of the four races so the page may have been incorrect---LordSil 19:15, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

One more thing,isn't Ta'agra the language of the Khajit? Or did it originate from the Ka'Po'Tun?--LordSil 19:17, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Ta'Agra is indeed the Khajiiti language. I'm not sure what its relationship to Ka'Po'Tun is, you'd probably have better luck asking around in the Bethsoft Lore forums for nitty gritty stuff like that. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 22:00, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Betmer

On the page under Bet- it says beast, but the example is Betmer. A search of the site resulted in nothing, do they exist?-Puddle 19:50, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Betmer is a derogatory term used to refer to Khajiits, Argonians, and sometimes Orcs. I know it's documented somewhere, but I can't think where. A quick Google search for "Betmer" + "Elder Scrolls" will show you several places where it's used, though I haven't found any that are official Bethesda source. I know it does exist somewhere in the lore, however. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 21:56, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Aah, thank you, I just couldn't find it on the site.-Puddle 21:24, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

Chart Style

The language chart at the top of the page is a tad ugly. I'd like to change it to use the Chart template but usually only a few editors are familiar with it so I'm posting the chart below for comment before moving it to the page. I tried different styles and this one seemed the least messy. It can be done horizontally but the Chart template would need expanding first.

Ehlnofex

Proto-Dwemer

Dwemer

Proto-Aldmeris

Ayleidic

Aldmeris

Bosmeris

Dunmeris

Atmoran

Proto-Nedic

Tamrielic

Nordic

Akaviri

Tsaesci

Ta'Agra

Hist

Argonian

‒ Joram↝Talk 06:55, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow! I love it! I'd use a different background colour (the one used at the moment for instance) but it's a think of beauty! rpeh •T•C•E• 07:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The style is superb but the information is wrong in some places. Still, nice job! Kertaw48 21:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

That's not a helpful comment. What do you think is wrong with the information? It's a direct copy of what has been on the site for a couple of years. rpeh •T•C•E• 22:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

How's that? I know nothing of the language history but if corrections are provided I'll make the changes before posting on the page. ‒ Joram↝Talk 23:37, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, Ayleidic is put under Proto-Dwemer when it should be under Proto-Aldmeris. Also Tamrielic is put under Proto-Aldmeris(although I'm not sure this is wrong since I don't know what exactly Tamrielic is, but I suspect it's the language spoken by Imperials since it is their empire). Just make a comparison with the chart on the page... Kertaw48 13:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I was puzzled by your last comment since the chart I created looked the same as the original when I created it. I just looked and now it's different. It seems the chart on the page renders differently in different browsers- I got three different renders in 5 PC browsers. I'll look at it when I get home tonight and see if the code suggests which way is right. ‒ Joram↝Talk 21:04, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I get the same look from the main page in the latest versions of Firefox, IE, Chrome and Opera - they all look like the chart above. What browsers look different? rpeh •T•C•E• 21:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

<- Here are some screenshots. Look where Proto-Aldmeris starts and ends compared to the languages to its right. Left is Chrome- Opera and Safari were the same, Center is IE, Right is Firefox. ‒ Joram↝Talk 22:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

When I look at old versions of the chart I can see where errors got introduced very early on. The original had 10 rows and all the rowspans added up. When the table was next edited User:TheRealLurlock introduced errors. Ayleidic and Tamrielic had rowspans of 2, probably accidentally, and Proto-Aldmeris had a rowspan of 5 for only 4 languages. Atmoran/Proto-Nedic also span 2 rows but it seems only for one language. In short its a mess.

I think the chart I created is right. Using the Wayback Machine I'm looking around Aldrien's Chalice where alot of the information on this page came from to see if I can find details. ‒ Joram↝Talk 23:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow. I think you just gave me a Schroedinbug - I now get what you get, but I could have sworn that they all looked the same before. As for the chart, I have to agree with Kertaw48 - Ayleidic is unrelated to Dwemer - it should come straight from Proto-Aldmeris. Tamrielic coming from both Nedic and Aldmeric roots makes sense - words like "Ald" <-> "Old" suggest some kind of connection between Aldmeric and Tamrielic, but it only takes a quick glance at the rest of the page to show any link is tenuous at best: I'd have Tamrielic coming directly from Nedic. rpeh •T•C•E• 00:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I made the changes. I could put Tamrielic coming from both Proto-Aldmeris and Nedic with a dashed line from Proto-Aldmeris maybe.

With some research I found the old version of the translations. I saw nothing that led to the chart directly, it probably came from different entries and the sources the entries came from. ‒ Joram↝Talk 00:33, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Bosmeris

I searched references to Bosmeris words from big table, and all I found was only words Jagga and Rotmeth. "Meh Ayleidon" (who put it here?) is just some fanfic on the interwebs, and all words on letter "a" are from Ayleid Reference Text, so they are Ayleidic. I vote for remove of them. Phoenix Neko 19:08, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I've removed "Meh Ayleidon". I don't find the page very trustworthy in general, but if something looks suspicious I vote to remove it. --Legoless 19:12, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

You may or may not want to re-include it given its context. It's from the 1st Edition Pocket Guide 24.179.147.151 20:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The Origins of the Tamrielic Language

I was looking through the Lorespace just to read as I am sometimes do and noticed a somewhat major discrepency. On the Altmer page, it says that "...the common tongue of Tamriel is based on Altmer speech and writing, and most of the Empire's arts, crafts, laws, and sciences are derived from Altmer traditions" with two sources (this and this) to backt he statement up. However, this table says that Tamrielic (the "common tongue" of Tamriel) has its origins in Proto-Atmoran, a direct contradiction. Another case of contradicting lore. :) Thoughts?--Kalis Agea^{Yes? Contrib E-mail} 01:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

S.O.S

This page really needs attention, the chart seems to be mostly wrong or based on speculation.

As is the chart seems to state that modern Cyrodilic is entirely the product of Atmora which we know isn't the case, it takes a hell of a lot from Aldmeris as well. Also, the Cyrodilic line leads from Ehlnofex -> Atmoran -> Proto-Nedic, what does "Nedic" mean in this context? I think "Proto-Nedic" should be removed and atmoran should lead straight into "Nordic"

Okay, so "Aldmeris" should probably go and "Proto-Aldmeris" should just be "Aldmeris".

We don't know a lot about the dwemer as far as their exact origins. There is evidence that they did originate in Aldmeri culture but we do not know when and in what manner they left it. With that in mind it would make sense for their language to have originated from Aldmeris and developed into Dwemer, don't know where "Proto-Dwemer" came from.

Thoughts on all this? 80.42.222.20 10:34, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

The bulletin at the bottom of chart sums it up pretty well:

Note that the above chart is merely speculative, as there is not enough information to confirm or refute this information, and there are differing opinions as to how these languages developed.

Also this is a bit forum-ish. But hey, if you think your guess is better, feel free to change it. It does seem to be well thought out. -- kertaw48 15:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree on both counts, this page needs some help although with a little work it will be a great resource. Also, I am a bit confused. How come there is no "Chimer" on the list? Wouldn't "Proto-Aldmeris" (I'm assuming thats the language the ancient Aldmer spoke, before migrating to Tamriel, but I also agree "Proto-Aldmeris" should be just Aldmeris.) lead to Altmeris, Chimeris and then Dunmeris, since the Chimer were originally a splinter group of Altmer? The Dunmer didnt even exist until much later when Azura cursed the Chimer. Alwaysburning 02:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

While once again, this is getting to the point of us having to relocate this discussion to the forum, I'm going to answer it anyway since it is related to the content.

There are differing accounts of whether the Chimer exiled themselves from the AlDmer or the AlTmer. Also Chimeris, should it exist (even though there is no reference to it), would be a transitory language with no real definable qualities. At the moment of the exile it was closer (or possibly the same) to Aldmeris and right before Azura's curse it was closer to Dunmeris.

Also, yeah, I'd have to agree too: this page could use a bit of cleanup, especially with the references -- kertaw48 14:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, I was just going off of what I had read on various other lore pages of the wiki. I would be interested in helping clean up this page, if there was a consensus on what should be included based on what we know from canon, and not speculation.Alwaysburning 21:47, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

(←) Well, I'm not sure what exactly is unverified, so I'd suggest you try to verify it all (with references and all). Until someone does that it's just going to remain speculation. At best. -- kertaw48 05:43, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Alright. I'll do the best I can, starting with the notations that seem most speculative. I will be posting updates on this page, once I get something of substance so that the community can decide what belongs.Alwaysburning 05:40, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Words by Languages

Is there any executable way of making this article be sortable, so that users could see all the words from a single given language without having to browse through the entire page? I'm guessing making two pages would not be efficient, as new words are added all the time and this would require for it to be added to both pages. Or could we create a separate page for every language and would this even be useful? -- kertaw48 14:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Not without combining it all into a single table rather than separated by first letter. Obviously, there are advantages to both methods, so you have to give up some features in order to have certain others. The Ayleid Language already has a page. Others could be created, but they'd be mostly redundant, which is why this page was created in the first place. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:00, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I've tried to merge all of the tables and create out of them a sortable one in my sandbox. This way an entire language can be separated from the rest of them with a single sorting click. I also linked the first word of every letter to that letter on the article (e.g. Lore:Ehlnofex_Languages#N would align the page to the word "nagaia"), making it so that the two instances of {{LetterMenu}} templates would still be useful. However, I could only do this by replacing the {{v}} and {{?}} templates with plain symbols. This is all still in the concept stage, so any input would be appreciated. -- kertaw48 20:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: I've tweaked a few things and I think it's ready now. If nobody minds, I think the change should be implemented.

While we're on the subject of mass changes, I'm thinking of alphabetizing the short forms of languages in the table (the JEL used to be ARG for Argonians). Would anyone mind if I also removed all of the Ayleid words, since they're covered quite well on their own article? I mean it's either that or placing all of the Dragon words in this table, which seems to me a bit redundant. -- kertaw48 14:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Your sandbox looks great - we should definitely use it. As for the Ayleid and Dragon words, I'm not sure. I second that we remove the Ayleid words. The current listing is far from complete, and it only shares a single significant word with another language, Bosmeris: Av (From, In, Of). It also shares Magicka, Molag (Fire), and Mora (Forest) with numerous other languages. Basically, the removal of this language from the table would have very little impact. • JA^Talk 05:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, a bunch of them are like that - Yoku has NO words in common with any other languages as listed. As an aside, I'm trying to remember if there was some way to reverse the default sort order. Right now, if you click the sort button on a column, all of the words for that language end up on the bottom, and you have to click it again to put them on top. Seems like we should be able to fix that to make it more user-friendly. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 11:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I googled a bit about sortable wiki tables and came up with this. Could we implement it in the {{v}} and {{?}} templates and create a third one for blank spaces? Make the tick symbol be the "a", the question mark the "b" and the blank space the "c", thus aligning them perfectly when using the sorting button. From what I read, blank spaces are always sorted at the top of the list, so we'd have to do something. Also, by using the templates we could center the symbols. They look kinda crappy being aligned to the right.

P.S. I removed the Ayleid language and alphabetized the rest, plus adding some references. If we can solve the sorting business, this article would actually be pretty good. -- kertaw48 22:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: I did some tweaking again, and re-added the symbols. The sorting works now. Anything else you think needs doing (besides the rest of the references, I'll get on that in the future) or is it good to go? -- kertaw48 09:38, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The grouping of "Nirn" and "Nirni" breaks things a little bit. Try sorting by the "Ta'agra" column and you'll see what I mean. I think those should be separated into two entries, even if they're the same root. When sorted alphabetically, they'll be next to eachother at least. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 11:02, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

(←) I sorted that, and added the rest of references I could easily find (although a lot of them are still missing), but found other problems:

1. The ATM language has the exact same words as NOR. Should we remove one? If so, which one: the Nordic or Atmoran? I'd go with Atmoran, since we don't even know if that was a language, or what Nords' relation with Atmora even was. Plus, new Nordic words from Skyrim are going to need to be added, and we can't exactly place them under Atmoran.
2. The names under TSA are actually Akaviri words and not Tsaesci. It means it's going to need another alphabetizing.

The easiest way to solve both problems would be to place TSA (and rename it AKA, for Akavir) in ATM's place (see here for how it would look like). -- kertaw48 12:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

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